Just out: Interview Tun Mahathir Mohamad

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TRANSCRIPTION [5,200 words]:

Marjolein van Pagee: I'm here in Kuala Lumpur with Tun Mahathir Mohamad. We're going to talk about Malaysia, the history of Malaysia and its current place in the world and also about the Kuala Lumpur Tribunal, the War Crimes Tribunal that you set up. First, could we go back to the history to give us some insight in… I mean from the Netherlands Malaysia is far away, I’m curious how different is Malaysia today than the Malaysia that you grew up in, still under the British occupation at the time. Can you give us some perspective of how that was economically, politically?

Mahathir: The Malaysian peninsula was occupied by people of the Malay race. Most of them came from Sumatra where there is an area of people by Malay descent: the language, their culture is Malay. And for a long time they had been coming to the peninsula. And in the peninsula they set up small states, not a whole country, but small states. There were many states in the peninsula. They occupied the peninsula from the Isthmus of Kra to the Riau archipelago, south of Singapore. And these states, they were absolute monarchies. The ruler, the Raja [king] is above the law and can do anything, because no action can be taken against him.

Marjolein: And this is before colonization? You're talking about…?  

Mahathir: When they came to Malaysia, they set up these small states which were absolute monarchies. But, because they were small, they were not strong. And they were surrounded by big countries, which imposed conditions on the Malays. For example in the North there is Thailand, at that time known as Siam. Siam was a big country. And the Malay in order to remain independent they sent tokens of… Being under the rule, under the power of Siam, they sent every year gold and silver flowers. It’s a token that they were vassals. They were able to thrive, but they were always subject to invasion by surrounding powerful countries.

And then of course they came into contact with the Europeans. The first Europeans to come to the peninsula were the Portuguese. They came to the state of Malacca. Malacca at that time was a very prosperous state. It was a trading port for a lot of trade between East and West. Because of the monsoon, sometimes, the traders need to make a stop in Malacca. They stay in Malacca for about six months waiting for the winds to change. But in 1509 the Portuguese came and the Malays treated them as foreigners and of course it seems that some of them committed some crimes. They will punish. The Portuguese went back to Portugal. They organized a very big fleet of warships with soldiers and all that. And they came back to Malacca in 1511. Then they attacked the state of Malacca and they defeated them. So the Portuguese occupied Malacca. The Malacca Sultanate had to move south into another state. But for almost 100 years the Portuguese ruled Malacca and then they lost to the Dutch. The Dutch people came and they were conquering all the islands of the peninsula of the archipelago, including Malacca. So Malacca came under Dutch rule. Then Holland had a war with Britain in Europe and Holland lost. And as a result of that there was an agreement for Malacca to be given to the British in exchange for Batavia or Batawi, now called Jakarta, which was given to the Dutch.

So, the Malaysian experience with British colonialism began with Malacca. Subsequently, they bought land in the peninsula including in Penang where they set up trading stations. But because they were able to administer the area that they have colonized well, it became prosperous, the Malay rulers were impressed, and they wanted to copy the British style of administration. So they eventually decided to employ British advisers. The British advisers were supposed to advise but the British advices took over the seat as if they had colonized it. And then they became British Malaya. Of course, during the Bangkok Treaty of 1909, the British handed over four Malay seats to Siam. The rest of the Peninsular became part of the British territories.

Marjolein: This is, I think, a very concise overview of the history of how the Europeans came in. But I think, as we know, the colonial empires always took a lot of things, resources to enrich themselves. So can we say that also under the Portuguese, British and the Dutch as well, that Malaysia was… that the resources went to Europe to enrich Europe?

Mahathir: Well, Malaysia is at the crossroad between East and West. All the trade in those days, goods are transported by ships. And ships have got to be supplied with food and water. And normally they do that in Malaysia, in Malacca, in fact. So after, the Portuguese occupied Malacca, of course, Malacca was ruled as a Portuguese colony. Subsequently the Dutch took over again. It became a Dutch colony and the trading went on. And later on, after the Treaty of Utrecht where the Dutch lost to Britain, many of the Dutch territories were transferred to the British. And among them was Malacca. So the British came in into Malacca.

Marjolein: But what was their goal? You say it's only to... as a station to water the ships. Like in Indonesia they were after the spices and you know, so many things... Here as well, I suppose?

Mahathir: Yeah, Malaysia also has got some land. But initially they would focus on trading, on becoming a supply base for the ships going east or west. They stop there. It was only much later that the British discovered rubber in Brazil. And the Brazil temperature and climate is the same as in Malaysia. The British started planting the rubber tree first in Kew Gardens in London and then from there the rubber tree was transferred to Malaysia and was planted in Malaysia. And it did very well. After that the British realized that the demand for rubber was growing as more and more vehicles began to use rubber for their tires. So the British realized that Malaysia offered land that can produce a lot of rubber.

And then the plantations came. So they started big estates taking from Malaysia big pieces of land. 25,000 acres… By British companies. At that time the British were ruling Malaysia and they paid very little, only about 5 ringgit, 5 dollars per acre. And they took huge pieces of land, which they planted with rubber trees. And they were doing very well because the demand for rubber was increasing as most of the transportation used motor vehicles, which has rubber tires.

Marjolein: So, then Malaysia became part of this industrial ‘big machine’, this industrial capitalist system. Already in your time, I mean, you were born in 1925, a very long time ago, almost a century, can you explain us a little bit about what this meant for the hierarchy in this colonial state? Because, I know from… I'm a historian, I studied Indonesia, there they had a three layered apartheid system, three different systems of law and then of course the biggest majority of Indonesians had no rights. How was that here? How were the Malay, what was their position?

Mahathir: Well in Malaysia, the locals do not cultivate in order to give part of their produce to the colonial masters. That happened in Indonesia. In Malaysia, the focus was more on acquiring land for rubber estates. And the rubber estates belong wholly to the British companies and some other European companies. So they were doing very well with rubber because the demand came on increasing with greater use of motor vehicles. And when the war between China and America was fought in Korea, the demand for rubber grew. But after that of course there was a collapse in the rubber market and a lot of people suffered. The rubber industry was started by the British but they bring in workers from India. So a lot of Indians came to Malaysia. But they came here to work and they were supposed to go back to India after they finished their contract. But they did not want to go back to India because life was good here. So they want to stay here. So many Indians stayed here. Some went back.

Also, the British wanted a supporting economy to supply the British business people with all their needs. For that they allowed the Chinese to come in. The Chinese were very good at setting up retail shops and providing all the needs of the estates, this was supplied by the Chinese. So Malaysia, which at one time was a country only by Malays has then become multiracial. We have Indians who work in the estates and we have the Chinese who set up many towns because they were the retailers and also the wholesale suppliers of the needs of the British companies.

Marjolein: Maybe we can also move a little bit to more recent times, the time that you became prime minister. The first time for a very long period. And a second time again in 2018. But in this first period in the 1960s, you came into politics and then in 1969 there was this racial conflict, a lot of things were going on. I would like to know more about how did Malaysia deal with… the British were officially not the colonizers anymore but they were still in other ways maybe present or influential. How to deal with that, how did you face that?

Mahathir: The British treated the Malay states as their colonies. They ruled the country. The locals had no say. Although they may be employed by the government but they had no say in the policies of Malaysia. So the British brought in Indians and Chinese. Very soon we find that the Chinese are doing very well. They became very rich. They began to buy land from the Malays. And by the time I became prime minister, the country... The people in the country were of three different races. But the most successful people were the Chinese. They were very rich. They own small estates, all the retail business, all the wholesale business. They were also in imports and exports. But of course, the British limited them. Most of the big business were controlled by British companies. Only small businesses were given to the Chinese.

Marjolein: Can we say that there is also a hierarchy. So even though the Chinese were, in terms of economics, more powerful and wealthy than the majority of Malay, on top there is always the white man, the British that takes everything from…

Mahathir: British policy is not written but practice. For example, all big business like import-export houses like shipping, transportation, estates, mining, all the big ones were taken by the British. The Chinese cannot go into the big ones. So the British excluded the Chinese. So they were in a way obstructed by the British because of a policy which was not written. But because the government was run by the British they work for the British.

Marjolein: Now you are still talking about the period before independence but when you, later on… how did you fight it? Because you’re known to be very pro-Malay and helped them to get higher up. How did you manage to do that?

Mahathir: When we gained independence all the British policies were thrown out. In other words, we allow Chinese, Indians and Malays (if they want to) to go into the big businesses. Eventually the Chinese were able to buy up all the British companies, all the British estates. And they became extremely rich because during independence, there is no restriction. Anybody can go into any business. And the Chinese being very good in business they benefited the most. So by the time I became Prime Minister there is a big gap in terms of wealth between the Chinese, the Malays and the Indians. The Chinese were the richest people. The Malays were largely poor people. But most of the administration was in the hands of the Malays. And the Malays at the time of independence believed that they would always rule the country because they were in the majority. They thought that it’s just so that the economy can be handled by the Chinese. They can become rich but political power would remain with the Malays. But by the time I became Prime Minister, the Chinese were so rich they were buying up all Malay land. And the gap between the Chinese and the Malays in terms of wealth began to increase very much. And this is not fair, of course we should share the wealth of the country between all the races. But because the Chinese were very smart in business, they gained the most. So because of that there were bad feelings between the Malays and the Chinese in particular. And before I became Prime Minister, also, there was an outbreak of racial war in 1969. I became member of Parliament in 1964. In 1969, I again stood for election. But because the Chinese refused to support me, I lost. I stopped being a member of parliament and of course…

Marjolein: So, your approach and what you said... Because in 1970 you also wrote ‘The Malay Dilemma’, the famous book. You met a lot of resistance, I assume?

Mahathir: Well, the government was not happy with me because I pointed out the disparity in wealth of the different races, that the reason for the race riots was because of this disparity. And, of course, the government was not happy with me. I was expelled from the party. And for a time I was out of politics almost entirely. But subsequently, the head of government, the prime minister changed. The first prime minister Tunku Abdul Rahman was a very easygoing person. He didn't mind to see the Chinese doing well and all that, but the people in the rural areas, the Malays were very poor. So this gap kept on increasing and then there were these 1969 race riots. And because of that the government could not be formed. Because the support for the government, for the main party, has been reduced. This is a Malay party. But there was a declaration of a state of emergency. Actually, Parliament was suspended and the country was ruled by an organization called National Operations Council (NOC) or MAGERAN in Malay. And it was headed by Tun Abdul Razak. The deputy prime minister, the prime minister himself left the administration to Tun Razak.

Razak realized that the disparity in wealth between Malays and Chinese would become worse and would lead to more race riots. So he introduced ‘the new economic policy’. The new economic policy is directed at trying to help the Malays catch up with the Chinese in terms of, acquisition of wealth.

Marjolein: This is really a lot about the domestic struggle that you faced. Can I ask you more to focus on how the neocolonial way, still trying to get something from Malaysia. Because you introduced a new policy: ‘The Look East policy’, can you talk a little bit about that, because that is maybe interesting for our viewers who try to understand Malaysia and also how all these newly independent countries still had to struggle.

Mahathir: When we became independent, we got rid of the policies of the colonial masters. We want business to be done by everybody without any restriction. But we find that the world economy was controlled by the Europeans, they determined the prices of products and all that. In fact the market was in London. Although we were the biggest producer of rubber and tin, the market is in London, the companies were registered in London. They were making money here but they were paying tax in London. So, this was not good for Malaysia. Of course, Sukarno also felt the same thing. He introduced the word ‘neo-colonialism’.

Because, although Indonesia became independent like Malaysia, economy-wise the European powers, the Dutch and the British, still controlled the market. To do business you had to work with them. And they made use of their control of the market to impose a certain restriction, certain conditions on the trade. So according to Sukarno, this of course prevented the newly independent countries from doing well.

And it affected Malaysia also. Although Malaysia did not have the Dutch system of getting the locals to produce sugar and all that of which part of the production goes to the Dutch. In Malaysia it’s not so, here it’s the land that is taken over by the British. They set up big estates, they were making money. They were mining for tin and all the business accrue to them.

Marjolein: And then you said let's stop looking at the West, let’s start looking around us and start focusing on that in order to get rid of them. But how did that went? Because that's not so easy maybe?

Mahathir: But even before I became prime minister, before I became a member of parliament, I visited Hong Kong, I visited Japan and I also visited Europe. And I noticed that these countries were all prosperous. And I asked myself, why are they prosperous and why are we not prosperous? So we studied the Eastern countries in particular. Japan, Korea and later on China, Taiwan. And we find that they were doing the business that before was controlled by British companies. J.D. Madison and all that, big British companies. But the Chinese were able to buy up all the business. In Malaysia they were able to buy up all the estates. So the British monopoly in big business was broken largely by the Chinese, by the eastern people. The Japanese of course, went into manufacturing. They were able to produce whatever the European countries can produce. And they can produce all those things at a cheaper price. And the yen at that time was very cheap. So they were able to compete with European products. And actually they dominated the market. And that was when the Japanese were forced to revalue their currency. That is… they call that agreement. For the Japanese it was an attempt to make their products more expensive. In fact the yen became three times the value. So all the Japanese products, the price went up. But even when the price went up the Japanese were able to organize themselves so that they can still compete and dominate the market.

Marjolein: So you wanted that for Malaysia as well, understandably, you wanted that to happen here. How was the reaction from the Western world, the big economists, on your actions? Maybe they didn't like it so much, I can imagine?

Mahathir: Well, they didn't quite like my policy but I retained relations with the West. Because some things we still had to get from the West. But many of the products now come from the East. Eventually all European products who were ousted from the market were replaced by Japanese, Korean and later on of course by Chinese products. So this did not make Europe happy with the market.

But they still, to a certain extent, they control the market through finance. So they can make you less competitive simply by changing the interest rate of the banks and revaluing your money.

Marjolein: So that's what they’re still doing maybe … you already mentioned Sukarno, later there were also many other leaders like Gaddafi in Libya who tried to do something different, in order to protect the resources and the wealth of their own country, but they were removed. How did you... Did you never fear anything like that or did you never face some opposition, that they were threatening you, or they were saying that you have to stop this or something like that?

Mahathir: Well, they accused us of having a very authoritarian government, not being democratic. We do not practice human rights and all that. So they attack us on the social side. They couldn't attack us on the economic or political side. So they tried to make out that we were an authoritarian country, not obeying the rule of law. A lot of things were said about us to give a picture that we are prosperous because we do not practice democracy. You see, so that is their...  But despite all that we still managed to prosper. Because although Europe was before the biggest market for Malaysia, slowly the eastern countries became a bigger market. It came to a point where, when China began to open up, China became the biggest market for Malaysian produce. So the influence, the ability of European countries to apply pressure was reduced.

Marjolein: It's such a long history. We already started this interview in the 1500s. A lot of people are now talking about a multipolar world, about new powers coming up. Do you see... do you think that the old empire already collapsed or do you think that it is still happening, or not yet? What is your view on that?

Mahathir: After World War II the concept of empires belonging to European countries was rejected. So, European countries found they couldn't sustain their empires because it was becoming very costly. They had fought a war and they’d lost a lot of money through the war. So they decided to discard their empire. But if they lose their empire, they lose a source of income. So what do they do? They control the market, the finances. They determine for example the value of the currencies through Bretton Woods and all that. All these things were used by the Europeans to prevent the eastern countries from taking over the market. So although we produced the rubber, we produced the tin and even manufactered products, the market is controlled by them.

Marjolein: So they became smarter, more indirect, but they became smarter. But do you see change in that regard by that now China is being much more powerful? Is there change or are we still in the same old...

Mahathir: When they lost their empire, they lost their market. For example the British had a system called ‘Imperial Preference’, where if you buy British goods you get some tax advantages. But after the loss of empire they couldn't apply these. But what they did was, they promoted the idea of ‘borderless world’, that you should not use your border to stop goods from entry. They were hoping that if it is borderless then they have access to the market they had lost. But still they couldn't compete with eastern countries. But this idea of ‘borderless world’ was promoted by them and accepted by the whole world.

Marjolein: Because it sounds good like ‘free trade’, it sounds good but there is also an aspect that they always use any means necessary when they cannot get what they want. So they use this regulation, yes, they have the ICJ but as you also opposed the Iraq war, you also said like: ‘but this is not the way to...’ Can you maybe explain how you... Because that sounds quite radical to set up a tribunal here in Malaysia. And later men like Tony Blair and George Bush were even convicted, that's quite radical?

Mahathir: That came later. But first, because there was a borderless world, we also have access to the market. Now, that is not something that the European countries like. So they claim that we were using child labor, slave labor... All kinds of accusations were hurled at us, they boycotted our products. That is how they gain access through ‘a borderless world’. But when we gain access, they put in other barriers. Later on we find that they were supposedly promoting democracy. All the countries must be democratic. If you are not democratic they are prepared to even invade your country. And force you to become democratic. Including getting rid of your leaders. This is what happened to Iraq. And then they promoted the idea of regime change. All regimes, all  governments of newly independent countries must become democratic. And when they became democratic of course lots of people will be struggling to gain power and the countries became no longer stable. This is what has happened to many Arab countries.

Marjolein: But who believes that they were really doing this because of democracy? We all know now that it is because of oil right? And because of many other things.

Mahathir: It was worse than that. Actually this goes back to the period immediately after World War II. Now during the World War they worked with the Russians. But the moment they won the war against Germany, they said the new enemy is Russia. It was their partner! So if the new enemy is Russia they have to have a defense organization. Then they created NATO, a military partnership in which Russia was not allowed, not invited. It was directed against Russia.

Russia later responded with the Warsaw Pact, to counter this. Then there was the Cold War, between the Eastern Bloc and the Western Bloc. And this went on, until Russia finally collapsed. And when Russia collapsed many of the countries which were in the Russian Federation, the USSR, many countries became free. The moment they were free... The moment the Warsaw Pact was dismantled, actually it should lead to NATO also being dismantled. But no! NATO seized an opportunity to apply more pressure against Russia. By getting the Warsaw Pact countries to join NATO against Russia. And this is what happened. And of course, Russia felt threatened. So, when Ukraine was invited to join NATO, Russia felt that this is a direct threat to Russia. But NATO was very smart, they don't allow Ukraine to join NATO first. They only say: 'you can join’.

So Russia anticipated then and attacked Ukraine. So when Ukraine was attacked it was not a member of NATO. If it is not a member of NATO then NATO need not fight together with Ukraine. So now Ukraine is the battlefield. The people of Ukraine are dying. Millions of their people are now running away. And the whole country is devastated by the war. But the other countries are not affected. But they want Ukraine to keep on fighting against Russia.

Marjolein: And was that, was it the same with all these wars... the Arab-wars like in Iraq. Is that the same old trick?

Mahathir: They promote war because the biggest producers and traders in arms was America. If there is no war, what are you going to do with the weapons?

Marjolein: So you say, it's not only that they were after the oil they were also keeping their market going?

Mahathir: They provoked confrontations and when there is a war, they can sell their weapons. Even... For example Taiwan and China. China says: ‘Taiwan is part of China’. Taiwan says: ‘we are independent’. But although there seem to be a clash between them, they are working together. Taiwan invested huge sums of money in China. And Taiwan regards China as a big market for Taiwanese products.

China on the other hand accept this investments from Taiwan, it’s beneficial to China so they want that to continue. They also get technology from Taiwan. So although they say they are different there is actually no war between them. But for the West it is beneficial that there is division and conflict.

Marjolein: They use that to... But you say it's not...

Mahathir: They don’t like a peaceful situation because then you cannot sell weapons. So this [Nancy] Pelosi, or what was her name, the speaker [of the US House of Representatives]... This lady decided to go to Taiwan. What for? Why do you go to Taiwan? She went to Taiwan to provoke China.

Marjolein: To close maybe, can you give some comment… I still think this act of creating the War crimes Tribunal is the right one to challenge their morality and their legal responsibility. Was there any reaction from the West? Even maybe by the press or by the ICJ? Did they respond to you... to this action of resistance I would say?

Mahathir: Well, they regarded this as nonstarter because they dismissed our court completely. But we know that these wars... Especially against Iraq was provoked by America. Because they claim that because Saddam Hussein was a dictator they need to change the regime. That is not their business! Any country can have whatever regime they can. But they said that: ‘oh, we have to make Iraq a democracy.’

And so they attacked Iraq. They claim that within three months their attack would succeed and Saddam would be overthrown. But as you know, it went on until now, it’s still not stable. You see, they still have to keep soldiers in Iraq.

Marjolein: So then what was the response? Did they respond? Did there came any response?

Mahathir: When they do this, the main thing is that... When there is tension, there is war, then there is business, you see. And in those wars you can sell weapons, without wars, you cannot sell a weapon. They keep on doing things to make confrontation between East and West burst out into actual war. And in war they can make money. Because the main thing is to make money. Because they are the biggest producers of weapons. Sophisticated weapon. Very expensive.

Marjolein: And... What is your hope? I mean, you have almost lived a century. Is there any hope? Do you see that this will change? Will this empire end? What do you think?

Mahathir: Wel...my hope is the young people, the university students for example, they see the wrong things being done by their own government. And they are demonstrating. One day these young people will determine who will rule the country. Because in the democratic system, the young people when they reach a certain age, they are eligible to vote and can choose the government. I hope that the young people have learned the lesson and that they will not continue the aggressive aggressiveness of their own government. We are seeing for the first time young people against their government. They are demonstrating.

Marjolein: In the Vietnam War there were also many students going on the streets. 

Mahathir: The Vietnam War also the same. Because the people in America, the young people who will be recruited to fight the war and to die in the war, they don't see there is benefit to fight against Vietnam. So the demonstrations they carried out and ended up with America losing the war and having to pull out from Vietnam. Now my hope is that the action of Israel will be stopped if America does not support Israel. Israel is able to do all these things, even against the ICJ, because America is behind it.

Marjolein: Yeah. Let's hope that for the future. I want to thank you very much for this conversation. Thank you.

Mahathir: You're welcome.

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