Interview Indonesian poet Saut Situmorang - English

Read here the transcript, or watch the video on YouTube

https://media-mondo.com/en/videos-en/interview-saut-situmorang/

TRANSCRIPT [6,043 words]

Marjolein van Pagee: Good afternoon. I’m here with Saut Sitomrang in Yogyakarta. From Media Mondo we would like to have a discussion with you about geopolitics, about Indonesia. You’re a poet, a writer but you also have a strong political opinion. You’re not very positive about the recent elections. Can you share with us how you view the political system in Indonesia?

Saut Situmorang: Okay. Thank you Media Mondo. Good afternoon from Yogyakarta, Indonesia. Talking about the so-called public election first, in Indonesia we have the ‘Golongan Putih’ movement. These are people who refuse to vote. So I've been part of this movement since 1992 here.

Marjolein: You don't vote, you mean?

Saut: Yes, I don't vote, until today. This movement... The function of this one is to show that we don't accept the system. Especially the voting system, the election system.

Marjolein: This happened in...?

Saut: In the 1970s. During the Suharto time it was considered very illegal, subversive and etc. Today it is different because in this ‘new Indonesia’, the Indonesia after the Reformasi [Reformation] it becomes like a fun thing to do for this new generation. It's fun because it's like an experiment to them. There are two kinds of this Golput people. The first one is like me, we don't even go to the voting booth. The other one, this is the fun one. They go there, they do their thing but they vote like five political parties. Or sometimes they even draw. The last one, they drew the flag of the Indonesian Communist Party. It's like, it's fun. So you see there are two groups in this Golongan Putih movement in Indonesia.

Marjolein: So even after the fall of Suharto... Because I can understand under a dictatorship and then you’re asked to vote, it's like a show. But then after the Reformasi, the time after Suharto, you still never got the confidence that it served any purpose to vote?

Saut: No, because they’re basically the same kind of people from the same parties. And also from the same class of people. They’re rich people. What nowadays people call the oligarchy here... people who have huge businesses. Even [president] Jokowi, you know, he's a businessman. And besides that, like I said... there are the old parties like Golkar...

Marjolein: Golkar is from Suharto?

Saut: Yes, from Suharto’s time. It is basically created by Suharto to suppress all other political parties. There’s also the so-called ‘Partai Buru’, the Labour Party. It’s also full of the same kind of people, even though they call themselves ‘Labour’ and are young guys from the young generation. But this corrupt mentality is still there. I mean, you have to change the electoral system. What they have in New Zealand I think is good. In New Zealand small political parties can win. By the voting in the area where they come from. For instance, if there’s like a small party from my area, Batakland, it will win because the Batak supporters will vote for this party and that vote will be counted, you know.

Marjolein: So, your complaint is that small parties have no chance here. It's only a choice between... like in these recent elections it was like three choices that people could make?

Saut: Yeah, it’s basically an imitation of the United States of America. They have two parties and they call it democracy. The last elections they’re enemies and this election they suddenly become like husband and wife. It's up to them. They can change! So there is no meaning in this so-called democracy because they can just choose sides.

Marjolein: So yeah, I have to say like I'm not following Indonesian politics maybe as you living here, but... For me when... like in 2014 when Jokowi became president, for many people he may have looked promising because he appeared to be like a regular guy. But what was your thought about him from the beginning that he...

Saut:  I was one of the very few who was actually against him. I remember this thing. There is this Facebook page. It actually belongs to...Can you guess it? Sting from The Police. And suddenly this page became like a propaganda page for Jokowi at the time. So I was very angry and I joined there and I said: ‘look, you are a foreigner, and you have like huge reputation. What are you doing? You are interfering in our internal political...’ The followers of that page, like millions of Indonesians, they attacked me, they called me all kind of names you know.

Marjolein: Why... can you explain us more about what was this about then? What was the name of the page again?

Saut: Sting! The singer from The Police. Yeah! I was so mad. What are you doing?

Marjolein: And he, what did he do then?

Saut: Look, this Sting is like... ‘Vote for Jokowi!’ This not just unethical, it’s immoral. Who are you? And I, since then... All of his songs, albums, I threw them out. I used to love The Police when I was in high school. So this is really a big, big, disappointment for me. And then after Jokowi became president, when he was elected as president for the second time and people started to realize who this guy is really. I checked that page again and that thing about Jokowi was gone!

Marjolein: Ah they removed it.

Saut: Yes, they removed it. But I wrote then... ‘Sting, I will never forget you, hopefully we never meet because once... you know, one day if we meet, hmm...’

Marjolein: And do you think it's just an individual like Sting or do you believe that maybe there is someone behind him that encouraged him?

Saut: I'm sure there's a huge...Ah... call me a conspiracy or whatever but this is a huge thing because Jokowi was unknown. He was no one! And suddenly, because this thing when he was the mayor of Solo, which is just a small town, over there, you know... And suddenly he became like a superstar. Because there was this heavy metal concert in Solo where Jokowi went, sort of giving his support... The media framed him like he was the new face of Indonesian leadership. And all these young kids stood up. From then suddenly he [won the] elections and became the governor of Jakarta. And he was aargh.. all these things, you know, it’s not natural.

Marjolein: Yeah, you suspect there is a bigger hand behind?

Saut: Yes. And then a big magazine like Tempo was involved. Like for the presidential campaign they put Jokowi on the cover. The cover is like he is the great Javanese savior for Indonesian people, yeah it’s... And now even the owner of Tempo, Goenawan Mohamad, he is crying on television ‘Oh oh, I am so disappointed with Jokowi.’ What's this...

Marjolein: So, Goenawan Mohamad is disappointed that now he's going away, he's leaving?

Saut: Because Jokowi is no longer going to be the president. He cannot be the president for the third time.

Marjolein: But his son will be the vice president so...

Saut: Who cares about the son! But I mean, you see this thing? People who supported Jokowi for two periods, for them he is like an idol. Suddenly now, like this election... the previous election they are so disappointed with Jokowi. They created all this whatever about Jokowi. I was like: ‘what happened?’ They change. So these people are people who have self interest in the elections. They don't really care about politics or democracy, or about Indonesia. When they see that Jokowi is no longer useful: ‘ah throw him out.’ And now at the time it is Ganjar, the former governor of Central Java. Ah these Javanese again, they choose him. When Ganjar lost to the general [Prabowo], oh everybody suddenly loved democracy, loved human rights.

Marjolein: Ganjar is one of the other candidates, right?

Saut: Yes, from Jokowi's political party, the Democratic Party. He lost and Prabowo, the general, won. And everybody now, these former Jokowi supporters, who during Jokowi's term never really cared about what happened to the people, about all these things, about corruption, now they suddenly talk about human rights!

Marjolein: Now, you mean now? Because now they're not happy with Prabowo?

Saut: Because Ganjar did not win. They wanted Ganjar to win so that they can also get things out of his rule. Like what they got from Jokowi’s rule. Okay.

Marjolein: Can I ask you... I think for people... from the Netherlands it’s difficult for us to understand. Like, we can understand that Prabowo looks more similar to his ex father in law, Suharto, and that Jokowi seems from a different kind of political group. But is there any difference? Are they opponents or are they somehow from the same...?

Saut: Yeah, Jokowi belongs to the party... Megawati’s party right. The Democratic Party. But remember when Megawati was president she did that thing in Aceh. Genocide in Aceh. Also in Papua. What's the difference from Prabowo? He is also being accused during that time, in 1998 he did all these things, but Megawati really did it in Aceh. How many hundreds of thousands of Acehnese people died? They call it the, DOM, the military zone in Aceh, yeah. In Papua too. They forget these things about Megawati! This is Jokowi's party. And Jokowi belongs to it.

Marjolein: So what you're saying is that they have… Their image seems to be, in general, better... But it's not deserved. They are doing the same...

Saut: They don't have a better image. Suharto did that for 32 years in power. Megawati? What? Only one year in power. She did all that. So you can see this, but why these so-called human rights lovers, or democracy lovers in Indonesia. They were like, ‘forget it.’

Marjolein: And she's not popular. She's not popular at all.

Saut: But it's her party! Her party is involved in that. And Jokowi belongs to that party. So now they try to separate Jokowi from the party, you see this trick? And when they don't like Jokowi, they say: ‘he only belongs to...yeah, this is complicated.’ It's typical Indonesian bullshit! That’s the way they do it. That's how politics work here. So you don't have to understand it. This is just bullshit. I remember, the last, the previous two elections, because then Prabowo was also one of the candidates, right. They created all kinds of... They wrote articles and news. Even one American journalist, Tom Nairn or something, it's like a scare thing about what will happen if Prabowo becomes president. And now suddenly, even Jokowi chose Prabowo. Where is Tom Nairn? Where is that program Democracy Now in America? See? We've been victimized by these foreigners, this outside power since 1950s. The CIA with the colonel revolution in Sumatra and in Sulawesi. But they got exposed and then 1965 yeah. They’re still doing it but people try to forget it. As if it's only our problem. No, it's not our problem!

Marjolein: Let's talk about it more because you just mentioned an occasion that Sting, the famous singer, did something and backed up Jokowi. Are the United States and the West, are they pro Jokowi you think? Are they backing him up?

Saut: Jokowi was on the Time Magazine's cover you know. It's like ‘new hope’. That there is a new hope. Well, there’s your new hope, Jokowi. New hope for them! Yeah. But this is cliche, it’s always like that, you know. That’s why I said I don't believe in the so-called democracy here or public elections. No, there’s nothing like that.

Marjolein: I think that the United States doesn't really care who is doing it. If Jokowi can do it, Prabowo can do it. They're fine. Right? It doesn't really matter who.

Saut: Yeah, it's just their... When you’re useful. Okay. It's like with Suharto, you’re useful, okay. After 32 years, when you’re not useful anymore, you get out!

Marjolein: You think they're also behind when Suharto was felling down from power in 1998? They're behind it?

Saut: Oh yeah, oh yeah. The US embassy helped the so-called activists in Jakarta, including Goenawan Mohamad, with technology. I was living in New Zealand then. But how come Indonesia can have this amazing internet and online media? And then after the so-called ‘Reformasi...’ It’s exposed that actually Goenawan Mohamad got all these awesome technologies from the US embassy. Ah, it's always like that.

Marjolein: So there's nothing new under the sun you say.

Saut: But I think the people should make change themselves. Not these so-called elite, they’re just robbers, all these thieves, they're criminals. But the people...The problem is, the people, ah you see after 32 years of Suharto the people they don't have self-confidence. And these so-called activists too... I don't know what they're doing. These ngo’s. I don't even know.

Marjolein: Are they… do you think that they can be used? Maybe they don't know but they can be used... Like you’re saying this about Goenawan Mohamad, that he's sort of used by, even by CIA. But are these activist groups that were so pro Jokowi before and now are crying about Prabowo being in power, is it dangerous that they may be used by the United States?

Saut: Yeah, I believe in that too. It's experience from Mossadegh in Iran, it was just like that. The so-called student movement of Jakarta too in 1965. The student movement of 1998. Look at those student leaders now. Look at them! They work with the generals. They, it’s... I mean like, come on, this is a shameful history.

Marjolein: So you’re not very positive.

Saut: I'm not very positive about politics in this country but I’m very positive about the people, the food... about the life, I’m positive. But these parasites, these criminals. They’re still in power and they're destroying... I mean, like, there is this thing in Jakarta they call it the ‘Kamisan’. Every Thursday. ‘Kamis’ means Thursday, right. It's started by... The mother of one of the student victims of ‘98. Ms. Maria or something, her name. It’s already there for what? 15 years? She's been doing it directly in front of Jokowi's palace. But Jokowi never invited her.

Marjolein: And she's doing what?

Saut: This demo every Thursday in Jakarta. In protest of this impunity of these generals who are there today and who are not being tried for the killing of students in 1998. Especially the students of the Tri Sakti University. And one of the victims was her son. Yeah, Ms. Maria. And this event, this Kamisan-thing takes place in front of Jokowi’s palace. I was there once and Jokowi just in his car... Vroom...vroom.

Marjolein: Passing them?

Saut: Passing them, just looking from the window. ‘Hello Saut’, probably, yeah. That's your president Jokowi! The democratic one. And this mother, Ms. Maria has been doing this for 15 years. At least he could have invited her!

Marjolein: So, you were very early critical of him while others still?

Saut: I just don't trust... The only politician I trust in Indonesian history is Gus Dur, the blind president. Abdurrahman Wahid. But he's not a politician, he's a leader. I came back from New Zealand, where I studied... I decided to return to Indonesia after 11 years because of Gus Dur. He became the president. And I trusted that guy, I believed this guy. We changed.

Marjolein: He was not so long in power, right?

Saut: Yeah, because they coup d'etat him. They couped him. Yeah. Starting from: ‘Oh, he's a blind man.’ ‘A blind man cannot rule, cannot be a leader.’ And they create all these scandals about him.

Marjolein: Was he the first after Suharto or when was this?

Saut: Yeah. After Suharto his vice president Habibie became president. And then there were elections which were won by Gus Dur. But there was a coup d'etat. And all the powers, including the media, including Tempo, they attacked him. Nobody defended him! This elite, including Megawati as the vice president. So when Gus Dur finally left Megawati willingly accepted to replace him as president instead of saying: ‘oh, let's have an election.’ You see that kind of mentality!? So don't talk to me about politics, this corrupt mentality is inherited. And now passing down to the younger generation.

Marjolein: You are basically saying that there's only hope when there's like a regime change and a really different kind of... Everything has to be...

Saut: Yes. If you call it revolution... probably not bloody revolution. The revolution in the whole, seriously, you know. This... the election system should be changed because this is really corrupt. And they imitate everything made in USA, that’s really sad. This country, nearly 100 years independent but still that slave mentality. But if you look at them, woah... they look like they rule this world, you know.

Marjolein: You mean the politicians?

Saut: Yeah, look at their lifestyle, their attitude, as if they... But they're slaves. Slaves of the US, slaves of European countries like England or whatever.

Marjolein: Okay yeah, I got your point that there is still so much influence from the West and the United States, but there's also China. There is some competition going on between the US and China, right. And also Russia, maybe. But how do you see that? How was somebody like Jokowi and now coming up Prabowo, what is their position? Are they playing them out against each other or do you think they're still more loyal to the United States and the West?

Saut: You mean these people called Jokowi and Prabowo play China against..? They're not that brilliant, they’re dumb! They’re slaves! I am with China. We are Asian. And China never actually did anything bad with Indonesia even in our own past history. They've been living here for centuries. I love their food and their movies. Yeah, I'm with China. No, not the US! No way. We have bad experience with them. And we have bad experience with western Western power, like with Dutch colonialism. China is not... Yeah, China is also like us. It's a former third world country and they've succeeded to change themselves. We must imitate China!

They started in Indonesia with the so-called Xinjiang [Uyghur] genocide. And all these Muslims again, fellow friends, fellows citizens of Indonesia... So easily being manipulated! They used this Islam-thing you know. The US never loved Islam! All these Islamic countries they’ve destroyed: Afghanistan, Iraq, now Syria, Libya. And all those people that they imprisoned at Guantanamo, these are Muslim people. But those Indonesians believe the propaganda about Xinjiang [Uyghurs]. That’s... America love muslims? It's crazy. But this is what happens and this so-called elite, these Islamic elite... They play again with this thing because they get something out of it. Except, of course, the left leaning Muslim leaders from the NU, the Nahtatul Ulama organization. Well, I mean basically groups here are actually, I'm sure, supported by the US. There’s a group, it’s part of Goenawan Mohamad’s... It’s a huge organization called the ‘Liberal Islam Network’. It's paid by the US! And they sort of give the voice of liberal Islam to Indonesia. What the fuck is liberal Islam? Islam is Islam! It's not liberal Islam. And now this group is dead. The US don't pay them anymore... and then one of the leaders suddenly becomes reformed. No more liberal anymore! He is back to the NU [Nahdlatul Ulama].

Marjolein: But can the US, I mean, okay they pretend to... Maybe sometimes support groups, also Muslim groups, while in fact you rightly say that they are Islamophobic to the core. But... So you say that they also use whatever groups in their advantage and then pretend to actually be pro Muslim. But you say that’s... it's…?

Saut: In issues like Xinjiang, you know, oh they come like they created all these things. Or Iran: one young woman died, oh, they expose this, this, this, you know… How many women in Palestine died, in Gaza? Do they do the same thing? And do this local Muslim see this thing, the difference, the contrast? You know, Biden keeps sending help, billions of dollars in money, weapons, whatever. Look: this contrast is too much! And of course, I mean, I'm sure that [Indonesian] students who get scholarship to the States they don't get scholarship for nothing. It's been the tradition since the time of Suharto. So, like these kind of problems in Indonesia, it's not just political parties... Even the civilian, the elite, is like that. If not, it's easy to kick out this political party. But this is also the civilian elites, you know. They’re also involved in that. Probably they’re worse than the political parties. They’re not visible, they do it, via NGO’s or so like that, you know. It is... This country is... is... Broken! A broken country. Is wounded. Yeah. And still being ruled by the powers from outside.

Marjolein: You’re saying that China is not doing the same as the West colonized the world. But then can you reflect on, like...

Saut: China I think is a good counter influence!

Marjolein: Yeah, but then, Jokowi is also doing business with China a lot. And maybe the West doesn't like that? Do you think that there is some, let's say... some friction between what China is doing here and what the United States wants. Is it possible that there will be like a clash of these two big forces and that Indonesia is the playground of this clash?

Saut: Yeah, I'm sure it will happen. Because the United States try to keep the status quo, right. They rule these Asia-Pacific region, you know. But like the trend now, our people say to them: ‘we’ve got enough of you’, right. Like the creation of BRICs, the economical cooperation, it’s just good. You can see the trend especially in Africa where there was revolution. It is interesting because these military leaders who did all this revolution in Africa actually graduated from West Point in the States. ‘Hello America.’ And now they kick out the French, it's good! And how is that thing happen in Indonesia too? These young colonels or young generals, in Indonesia they started okay, they... they learned everything from West Point or whatever point in America. Become an enemy of the [United] States that's a good one!

Marjolein: But you don't see that happening right now.

Saut: It hasn't happened yet but hopefully will happen. Because you see the trend. Three countries in Africa are doing that! And it's the level of... it’s not generals but colonels. And in Indonesia there are many graduates of America, within the Army or the Navy.

Marjolein: How is Prabowo’s connection with the United States. How is he? Pro?

Saut: It’s since his father! His father was actually one of the leaders of the colonel rebellion in Sumatra. He escaped to the United States and after Suharto got power he came back. And he started this what we call ‘the Berkeley Mafia’, all these economists that were trained at Universitas Indonesia in Jakarta and sent to the States. Basically his students.

Marjolein: So it will probably not Prabowo who is going to be... Like you were giving the example of the African nations that are revolting. You don't expect him to do...

Saut: No, not Prabowo. But I mean... Military leaders who are unknown now, you know. I really hope because Indonesian people need a strong leader, yeah. Not civilians. Civilian you can’t trust. You cannot trust civilians in Indonesia. Since Sukarno you see. The civilians actually destroyed this country. But army! Not because my father was in the army. Yeah, but I mean... In the army, you see the discipline of the army and it’s very clear for them, black and white. Not like the civilian elite. And I hope, I really hope you know... But the one, the one like in Africa. Or the one like Chavez [Venezuela] yeah. Chavez too is from the army yeah. Because these people they’re clear about about what they want to do and they don't belong to political parties.

Marjolein: But then they need to think differently and not so pro colonial as is now still...

Saut: Yeah, like I said... Hopefully this trend is becoming a global trend. Because in Africa it's like a global African trend. And these are army leaders and they’re graduates of America too, yeah.

Marjolein: So it’s blowing up in their own face you can say?

Saut: Yes, yes... I have to admit it... I really hope that these young military leaders in Indonesia kick Prabowo out! He is useless anyway. And then change Indonesia. Because I believe only they who can do that. Not the political parties. Not these politicians, they're useless! It's complicated this country, you see. I mean like the majority is Javanese. And we see that Javanese culture is basically very different from us. For most of us. The feudalistic element of that culture is very different from us, yeah.

Marjolein: From us. Then you mean...

Saut: Yeah non-Javanese. Sumatran, Kalimantan or Sulawesi. It’s different. There is of course, feudalism in Sumatra... But very different from the Javanese feudalism. And you see in Indonesia they already have this myth that only Javanese can be president of Indonesia. Why? Why only Javanese? You see, from Sukarno there were presidents until today: Javanese. Indonesia is (sorry) fucked up.

Marjolein: So Prabowo is also Javanese?

Saut: Javanese! From Solo. And you see only one non-Javanese: Habibie. Yeah, the vice president of Suharto. He became president. You see what he did? He made East Timor free. Independent, ya? He did lots of things, good things. And then after that, he refused to continue. After when his term finished, he quit. He's not crazy about power. You see, only one non-Javanese. From this ocean of Javanese so-called leaders. So, that’s one problem. If I say this, I'm a racist against Javanese. But this is the reality. And we have to say it! You know. Nobody dares to say it in public. They have to say it, this is an Indonesian problem. Yeah. Why all these things about this phobia about non-Javanese as leaders?

Marjolein: Why not, for example, a Chinese then?

Saut: Yeah, or Chinese yeah!

Marjolein: But that's also, I think on one hand you see that... the influence of China is, of course because of the businesses that are being done here, that is increasing. But on the other hand, there is I think among Indonesians, also friction with the Chinese minority? How do you see that working out?

Saut: Chinese are not a minority in this country. My people are a minority! Yeah, if you see the numbers, no! This is also a myth from the New Order [Suharto.] ‘Chinese minority’, I mean they’re not a minority!

Marjolein: Because they're a large group?

Saut: Yeah, their numbers are large. In the big cities... Big! Me, from Batak in the whole planet, you know, our population is less than 7 million! Come on. And this... also using this ‘minority-majority’ thing. It’s from the old Suharto-regime time. Economically speaking, the Chinese are not a minority. They're the most powerful! Not just the big oligarchs. You go to the small towns in all of Indonesia: the rich people are the Chinese! So we also have to talk about this, you know. But the fact is: the Chinese are everywhere in Indonesia. So we are used to the Chinese. We are used to Chinese food. You know, we are used to Chinese movies from Hong Kong. And also in our popular literature, we call it the ‘Cerita Silat’, the ‘Wuxia.’ the Silat story, it’s Chinese! It’s part of our culture, part of our daily life. So they... Suddenly, now the political status quo in the Asia-Pacific is threatened by the emergence of China... The United States, the great Satan of the world, create again these things. Oh China is this, this, that way! Even Islam in Java yeah, it was spread by Chinese Muslims. Sumatra is from Arab and India, Gujarat. But Java is China.

Marjolein: I didn't know that!

Saut: It’s Cheng Ho, the great admiral of Ming Dynasty.

Marjolein: This was before the colonials came to Indonesia, right?

Saut: Before, it’s after Majapahit kingdom. It’s in the 15th century.

Marjolein: Indonesia also has like two... Or several court cases via the WTO, the World Trade Organization against the EU, the European Union about, among others, about nickel and also about palm oil. And then it seems that Indonesia is taking the position that is not pleasing European Union. How do you see that? You're not very confident about the current leaders and how they're dealing with things, but it seems that they're doing something that old colonial Europe does not really like?

Saut: It’s in the news this week, about... There’s huge corruption from the [tin] mining. You know how much money is that? 271 trillion Rupiah [15 billion Euros]! The corruption in the [tin] mining that is just being exposed. I just can’t believe this... Like what you said, okay they took the EU to the WTO for this but I mean it’s like doing something to cover up, lots of things. As if they care. The [tin] corruption, it is like one of the biggest corruption cases in Indonesia.

Marjolein: But yeah, I understand that. That's also something that should be paid attention to... But let's look at it a little bit from... Like zooming out. How to interpret in the way that Indonesia seems to be sort of more daring to do this against the EU. Maybe years ago they would not be so confrontational against the European Union and they... I mean, the European Union just demands that Indonesia keeps exporting raw materials and they don't want Indonesia to have like a refinery. And although, okay, there's apparently a huge corruption case going on and it's also not fair but... How do you see the relationship between Europe and a country as Indonesia. It seems that it's…Yeah. How do you see that?

Saut: Yeah, like I said earlier, for me it's just cosmetic. Probably just changing of owner, you know. Just like what happened to Freeport [West-Papua.] But they're still doing bad things to the locals, to the Papuans, to the Amungme people. Changing owner but nothing really changes, yeah. Like I said, okay, they did this thing with the WTO about nickel... But look at this case, they've been exposed! This is corruption, you know. So the nickel thing... It’s Indonesians who are doing all these things. By doing what they did with this WTO I don't see it like... What you read to it, that they’re sort of standing up against it. I don't think so! They don't have the guts to do that. They probably just... I’m sure it’s just cosmetic politics so that the media report about this thing... As if they ‘care’ about, you know...

Marjolein: So it looks like they come up for Indonesia and for the Indonesian economy but you think it's superficial in a way?

Saut: Yeah, it's been done before. So... Just for me no... I don't believe it.

Marjolein: You don't believe that the European Union is angry about this?

Saut: It's just for me it's just like the rhetoric of politicians, you know. Just to show... You have to look at the grassroots level. Do they really care? Look at what the nickel mining, you know... Their policy towards this inside Indonesia, that's what counts! Not what they do with the WTO, I don't care about that. Not just nickel, like what you said, the palmoil too... And like in my area, it's eucalyptus. They’re destroying the ecology and now it affects the lake Toba water. It sort of came down to... you know. And it's owned by one Chinese guy who is accused of being... he doesn’t pay tax in Indonesia. He recently just bought a huge castle in Germany. This kind of thing. And what? This person actually paid a lot of money for Jokowi’s presidential campaign.

Marjolein: You were emphasizing it's still mostly the US but then it's also Chinese oligarchy or how to call it

Saut: It’s local, I mean, it's not China. Not Chinese China, they don't belong to China. This is local, local people, you know. So it's basically this oligarchy, they're just playing things like playing chess. Sometimes we sacrifice this for the sake of media. So that they do this thing with it. But inside there’s no change. Do you see what happens to the local indigenous people? That's what counts, you know! Recently there are two local indigenous leaders being arrested by the police for nothing and arrested! Because of these oligarchs tell the police to [arrest them.] Because these people mobilize the indigenous people. The Indigenous Peoples Alliance (AMAN). This is serious, at this level, not in the WTO level.

Marjolein: I want to ask you something. There was an article by somebody whose name is Kit Klarenberg of Mint Press News. I assume you know the website? And he was actually suggesting that the United States is... was preparing a color revolution for Indonesia. But my question is... Do you think, at this moment, you're actually saying that they're quite cooperative? So is there any need for the US you think to organize a....?

Saut: We’ve had it since 1965. Color revolutions? yeah.

Marjolein: Yeah, but that's when leaders need to be replaced. But is there any need in the current situation? Are they... You're painting a picture that they're basically following the US. That they're not very daring and that they're not against the US. So is there any... Are things not going as the United States want it to be?

Saut: Yeah, no, look now... Replacing Jokowi with Prabowo. What's this? These two people are basically an American clique in Indonesia.

Marjolein: Yeah, that's what I mean. Is there any need for them to replace anybody? Now? It doesn't seem like that, right?

Saut: To replace whom? That journalist probably should drink beer with me, at his costs.

Marjolein: But his point is that... He did some research and he saw that, I agree with him there, there might be still a lot of groups that are being supported, or as you also explained about the Goenawan Mohamad clique before. But my question is more, if everything is running as, in the wishes of the United States, then why should they replace anyone?

Saut: Precisely! That question should be asked to that journalist. That Kit person!

Marjolein: So in your opinion again, maybe to close this... the current leadership whether it is Jokowi, whether it is his son, whether it is Prabowo, they are still in line of the bigger powers in this world. And that is still mostly the United States and the West that is...?

Saut: Yes, yes, I believe so, yeah.

Marjolein: Last question. What do you... because you are quite, yeah... I would say so critical that you see that a lot of things need to change before you will have any hope on a better future. What is your expectation for Indonesia? What what could be happen in a positive way that...

Saut: Like I said, I really hope that some colonels will rise up and do what their fellow colonels did in Africa. Yeah, I think that's my millenarian hope, yeah. That would change because I don't believe this ‘structural change’... I’ve been hearing these things since Suharto's time, you know? Yeah, ‘change from within’ and all that whatever...

Marjolein: You don't believe in reform.

Saut: Reform by... like I said... These colonels or captains suddenly, you know... Pop up somewhere in Indonesia and... Take power. And do, like, what’s been happening in Africa. And then that's when we start talking about change. If not, it's just the same thing, just different terminology. Different faces but inside, still the same.

Marjolein: Okay. Thank you.
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